Srinivas Rao Takes on the Temptations of Conformity
Srinivas Rao has interviewed over six hundred people on his podcast Unmistakable Creative. He’s also the author of a new book titled Unmistakable: Why Only Is Better than Best. In it, Srinivas tells the story of quitting his job to pursue his dream of learning how to surf. The book explores how to chart your own course, to become an authentic, full expression of who you are.
I’m not sure I totally agree with the book’s premise of being “the only,” or what Seth Godin would call a purple cow, but what the book does is provoke. And, it makes for an interesting conversation between us.
In this interview, we discuss:
- The dangers of an echo chamber.
- Why best practices are false gods.
- The power of commitment.
- How to play it safe while still being courageous and bold.
Be sure to follow Srinivas on Twitter @UnmistakableCEO
Or bookmark it here to listen to later.
Michael: So I’ve had the pleasure of being on Srini Rao’s podcast a couple of times and I’m not alone. He has interviewed over 600 people as part of his focus on what he calls the Unmistakable Creative. He’s a thoughtful guy behind the mike, you know, his interviews are typically an hour or more, he loves going into the back story of people—how did you get, where did you come from to get to where you are now? Anyway, Srini has a book of his own published by Portfolio. It’s called Unmistakable: Why Being Only Is Better Than Being The Best. That’s not quite the right subtitle but it’s basically right.
And, you know, it’s interesting, it has a surfing metaphor throughout it. Srini tells a story about learning to surf in Brazil and how that’s been a big influence in his life and how the metaphor of paddling out and hanging out with the surfers and catching the wave and riding the wave in and beyond is a useful understanding of the work you need to do to become a kind of authentic full expression of who you are.
And I have to tell you, I’m not sure I totally agree with the premise of the book about being only, you know, being purely distinctive, what Seth Godin would call a purple cow, a cow matters above and beyond everything else. But what that does is it is provokes—it makes for an interesting conversation between us. And I think you’ll find a lot of value in the conversation with me and Srini Rao, author of Unmistakable.
Alright, Srini, I’ve shared a long, twisted history with everybody, the fact that you’ve been kind enough to have me on your great podcast, the fact that you’ve had more than 600 amazing guests on your podcast, but now the tables are turned at last and I get to talk to you about your book. And I want to start with the question I start with most people these days which is, you know, what are you taking a stand against, what’s got you irritated or frustrated or up-tempo enough that you’ve actually sat down to write a book about it? So what are you up against here?
Srini: That’s such a great question because I think, you know, what I mean, if we’re taking a rather cynical view of my book, we could say the book is literally a giant rant on all the things on the internet that irritate the hell out of me.
Srini: Which it, you know, which it’s not, but I think, you know, what really kind of prompted this thought process and this sort of notion of Unmistakable was a pattern that I kept seeing over and over again and it’s the pattern that causes me to reject people when they want to be guests on our show. It’s the pattern that caused me to make a pretty drastic shift in terms of the content of the show from being, you know, podcast for bloggers to being Unmistakable Creative. And it’s the pattern that led me to create the conference that I wanted to go to because I hated all the events that I went to, with the exception of, you know, AJ Leon’s Misfit conference.
Srini: …. that pattern was that I would see that somebody, you know, well known or famous or, you know, somebody with a million followers on Twitter would get some sort of a result and then they would go out and say well this is what I did to get this result, you know. A perfect example of this is, you know, somebody really well known who has a podcast with a million downloads goes and says everybody should start a podcast, and, of course, when that person says that, everybody and their mother starts a podcast.
Srini: And the thing is that a lot of those people probably shouldn’t have started podcasts. As cruel and harsh as that might be, it’s kind of like, you know, Tucker Max wrote this post on the Medium saying why everybody shouldn’t write a book. I really—you know, as tempting—as much as I resisted the temptation, I’ve wanted to write a post titled why everybody shouldn’t start a podcast.
Srini: But that’s just one area, you know, where this is an example, because what happens is that we keep seeing these patterns and we’re, like, “Okay well this person did what they did and they got the result that they got. Then if I do exactly what they did, I will get the result that they are saying, you know, that I will get,” and of course, you know, we have so much evidence to the contrary which, to me the most interesting people who do things on the internet or for that matter build companies or start things are the ones who don’t necessarily follow some sort of map or follow anybody else’s plan.
You know, I think Paul Jarvis had a really interesting quote that I included in the book somewhere. I’m going to butcher the quote exactly which is ironic since I wrote the damn book. It was something along the lines of nobody else is successful because they followed somebody else’s map. And I just—and so really what annoyed me was how often I kept seeing other people follow somebody else’s map and, not only that, get subpar results and yet still insist on following the map.
Michael: But I mean, so it’s kind of the mindless following, “If they’re doing it and it seems to work, I should jump on that bandwagon as well.” But is it the following that irritates you? Is it the kind of mindless replication of what they do? I mean, just because somebody’s started a podcast, you’re saying nobody should ever do a podcast?
Michael: Because somebody did one before you?
Srini: No. No. By all means, no. I mean, there are people who, you know, should. But I think it’s the mindless replication, right? It’s, you know, if you look at a lot of podcasts, a lot of them sound exactly the same. You know, if you went through and decided to go through the business podcast in iTunes, you’d probably hear a lot of the same interviews with the same guests, with the host asking a lot of the same questions.
Srini: And I think that that’s one of the dangers that we’ve fallen into because it becomes this very, you know, sort of incestuous echo chamber in which new ideas are kept from getting in. So no, I don’t by any means think that, you know, you shouldn’t do this. I think that if you’re going to do it, you should do it in a way that is original and distinctive and bring something to it that nobody else could bring but you. But on the flipside of that, you know, you have people who listen to something some so-called guru or authority says and they abandon the thing that they have the potential for mastery to go be average at this thing that some guru says everybody should do.
Michael: So how do you figure out which path to follow? I mean, you’re laying out opportunities. One is find your own path. The other is look, you’ve got something that you’re already moving towards mastery and distinction on, keep following that path and keep working it. But, you know, I know you quote Seth Godin as one of your luminaries that you’ve interviewed and mention in the book and, you know, his whole thing about the, you know, purple cow—be different—but the dip is, you know, it’s miserable getting there.
Michael: You know what I mean? It’s like you want to quit a lot of the time. Or I think you’re saying it as another path, which is, you know, figure out what somebody’s doing and then find your twist on that. You know, it’s like, I’m doing Tim Ferriss but with a twist. I’m doing Srini Rao but with a twist. How do you—I mean, all of those feel interesting.
Michael: All of those could be a disaster. How do you—where do you start in terms of going “Here’s the path I’m committing to following”?
Srini: So, I think, you know, unspoken in that question, when you said interesting or disastrous, how do I make sure it’s not a disaster and it’s interesting? And, of course, there’s no way you can know that because the only way to know that is to go out and do this thing.
So here’s one way to think about it and this is a metaphor that I’ve used before. It’s a bit like standing in two different spots in the same room. Let’s say you move to a different spot in that room. What you’re going to see is going to be very different from, you know, the spot that you’re standing in, you know, the second time versus where you’re standing the first time. But the only way that you’re going to be able to see that is to actually take those steps.
And so I think a lot of it is about indulging curiosity and, you know, so much of what we do at Unmistakable Creative, so much of the way we work and the way we produce what we do is not necessarily based on this is going to be guaranteed to work, like, you see, you know, the crazy art work, or when we did this free eBook called The Compass, you know, we went crazy over the design of it. And nobody puts in that kind of work into an eBook because it’s just ridiculous—especially a free eBook—and yet we felt it was really important to do that but not, you know, I mean, of course, you know, do we want to get some sort of response from the audience by doing things like that and make our statement? Yeah, absolutely.
But another part of it was just morbid curiosity of what would it look like if we basically looked at what people expect this thing to look like and defied all of those expectations? What if we challenged what their perception of an eBook could be? And that in my mind is more than anything driven by curiosity.
Michael: But I mean, it also ties in with concepts like, for instance, Blue Ocean Strategy, you know, that terrific book where companies, and it’s a while since I’ve read it, but, you know, they talk about Cirque du Soleil, they talk about Southwest Airlines, figure out what they need to do that’s the same as the people in their competitive sphere but what they can do that’s different. So Cirque du Soleil for instance has a lot of the trappings of a circus; it has a big tent, it has clowns, but they went “We’re not going to have animals. We are going to have a level of elite gymnasts that’s going to re-define what that experience is like.”
Srini: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely, I mean, I unfortunately have never seen Cirque du Soleil but I …
Srini: Yeah. Sad.
Michael: Hang up the phone and go off and buy a ticket to Cirque du Soleil. That’s a fantastic …
[Talking at the same time]
Michael: And for a man who’s all about Unmistakable Creative, it’s like, that’s … alright, I’m wagging my finger at you now. You can’t see me because we don’t have a video going but I’m wagging my finger at you.
Srini: I think that’s a great example, though, because, you know, you look at circus and it’s kind of, like, okay, you know, this is what we think a circus is going to be but we’re going to bring in elements that you wouldn’t imagine in a circus and, you know, I think—you know, I have to credit Eric Wall for the sort of mindset where he said, you know, live music has engaged participants, keynote speaking has passive consumers, there’s room to be explored in how you bridge the gap between those two things.
You know, so Cirque du Soleil keeps an audience on the edge of their seat the entire time they’re watching as you have, you know, accurately described. Why is it that we can’t bring that element of sort of theatricality of performance into a keynote speaking room? It doesn’t make sense that we don’t do that when it’s so engaging and it’s so, you know, it really does do something to us emotionally and yet we continue to basically hold boring conferences in hotel ballrooms that make people want to kill themselves.
Michael: Right. So, one of the—I mean, through the book, the metaphor that you use throughout the book is surfing. You talk about your own experience of learning how to surf. What a spiritual experience that can be. That soul-surfer metaphor that you talk about at some stage. And you actually set out, I think, six different stages throughout the book as that, you know, paddling out, lining up with the other surfers, dropping into a wave, you know, catching a wave, riding that wave, and then kind of the impact zone as you leave that wave.
And I remember reading, and I’m going to connect back to that, I think, but here’s my question for you: You have a rant in the book about best practices and how best practices are false Gods, and I’d like to agree with that. I remember reading Peter Block on that some years ago and he said something similar which is best practices are just a way for you to not actually think yourself but kind of opt out. And there’s something about needing to learn the basics before you can deviate from the basics. I mean, you look at the great artists. They go into art galleries and they practice learning how to draw like Rembrandt, but generally once they’ve mastered drawing like Rembrandt, they get to find their own voice, their own style, their own whatever it might be.
Michael: How do you strike the balance between the need to learn the fundamentals and the need not to be a slavish copy of whoever?
Srini: That’s such a great question and, you know, I wish I had, like, some really concrete answer for you. And part of it is getting to a point where the quality of what you do is high enough that you can abandon following what other people are telling you to do. Because I think that we live in a world that demands quality. You know, we were just talking about podcasts. How many podcasts are in there at iTunes? It’s in the millions. And more and more people are starting new ones every day. And what that does is it completely raises the bar for what is expected from an audience. So, if you don’t capture them within, you know, the first 30 minutes or 30 seconds at this point, of a conversation, you’ll lose them.
And so I think part of it is really a commitment to quality and saying “Okay, you know, I’ve reached a point of proficiency where now I can afford to abandon these so-called best practices to go out and do my own thing” and, you know, there are times early in the process where I think it makes sense as well. You know, one of the other things that I said in the book was I enrolled in this course called Blog Mastermind that was created by a guy named Yaro Starack and one of the lessons was interview one person as a way to get traffic to your blog. Well, I deviated from that lesson, and this was when I didn’t know the first thing about starting on-line projects. I thought, you know, rather than one interview, what if I did it as a weekly series and of course, you know, here we are 600, 700 interviews later. Like, we were one of the very first interview-based podcasts. I think it was basically us, Mixergy and The Rise to the Top by David Siteman Garland.
Srini: And, you know, at that time it wasn’t, you know, this thing, it wasn’t a trend, it wasn’t something that people were telling me to do, so there is value even in the beginning of deviating from a so-called best practice. But, you know, there are certain places where, you know, my friend Matt made this really hilarious example. He said, for example, he said, “You don’t want a car with square wheels because it wouldn’t go anywhere,” you know. And he said, “In that case, it makes sense to follow a best practice.”
So I think it’s about reaching a certain level of competency and proficiency that you can perform at a high enough(?) level where you can get away with not following a script, if that makes any sense.
Michael: Alright, Srini, I always have these fun three questions roughly in the middle of the podcast just to kind of get a sense of who my guests are, where they’ve come from, and the first question is this, what’s the crossroads you came to, what’s the decision you made that seemed to make all the difference for you?
Srini: Yeah, so I graduated from business school April 2009, and I didn’t have a job when I graduated. Six months after I graduated I found a job working at this—I think it was like a searching(?) and marketing company, trying to do sales and I found out that all they wanted me to do was sit around making cold calls and I thought, I didn’t get my MBA to do this and this is exactly what I got my MBA to avoid doing ever again and, I think two weeks after I started, I didn’t even quit, I just walked out the door and there’s not a day that goes by that I don’t think that was the right decision.
Michael: Perfect. I love the courage in that. Alright, question number two is this, whose work has influenced your work? You know, and that can be authors, that can be thinkers, that can be mentors or role models, but whose work has influenced your work?
Srini: As you know, I’ve done 600 interviews so everybody is to some degree. But some that stand out: Eric Wall, AJ Leon, who’s a dear friend of mine, Greg Hardell, who was a mentor to me, and then my business partner, Brian. So all of these people have influenced and shaped my perspective on things in a really big way. And those are just a few.
Michael: Yeah. I like you pointing to just the wide range of influences I think we all have. Okay, third and final question, you know, part of Box of Crayons is about helping people do less good work and more great work—the work that has impact, the work that has meaning. How do you see your great work at the moment?
Srini: You know, I mean, I’m starting a second book so that’s one component of it. And then, you know, ideally we really want our work to reach more people because I think that it’s having the kind of impact that we really are proud of but I think we could be doing more.
Ideally, like, I want to be able to get to the point where we can influence and shape culture and do the kinds of things—you know, I read, I just finished reading this book recently called The Bridge to Brilliance by a junior high school principal in a very, like, rough New York district Brownsville.
[Talking at the same time]
And what I loved about this story is one of her students was photographed on Humans of New York and Brandon, who is the founder of Humans of New York ended up meeting her and she wanted to raise funds for the school so the kids could go from this inner city school and take a visit to Harvard so that they could, you know, see a world that was so foreign to them. And Brandon was able to raise the money for it in 45 minutes. And what I like about that was that he leveraged his platform to make a significant change and hopefully that I think is where we really want to head, to be able to do things like that.
Michael: Yeah, I love that. Okay, Srini, let’s jump back into our interview.
Michael: So, I’m going to pick one of the phrases from the book because you got the paddle out and people want to know what that is. You’re on the board and you’re trying to get out beyond the breakers into where the waves are. There’s the line-up, that’s when you’re hanging out with all the other surfers and there’s a degree of competition to see who gets to catch the wave, who has the right of way. And then there’s the drop and, you know, I’ve attempted to learn how to surf. Never managed to make it on top of a surfboard yet, but have body-surfed and you still have that experience, that moment when you catch a wave.
Michael: So the first thing I’d love to ask you is, what does that moment actually feel like when you’re surfing, you know, when you actually catch a wave? How do you know that you’ve caught it? What does it feel like when you connect with that?
Srini: Wow! Pure bliss. I mean, there’s nothing like it. I can’t tell you how much—it’s one of—the first time you’re experiencing it—or the first time you experience it, you know in that moment your life is about to change forever. It completely alters the trajectory of your life. And it’s one of those things that is so addictive because all these things that we crave like mindfulness and peace of mind, and sort of this meditative silence, there’s nothing in the world that I have found that makes the voice in your head go silent like surfing.
And it’s really interesting because, I mean, literally you’re just, you know, you stand up and it’s this just ear-to-ear smile on your face and all you’re hoping is I really hope this thing never ends and, you know, every wave comes to a close but while you’re on it, it’s true presence, it’s true presence and true bliss. There’s nothing like it.
Michael: And you say in this chapter, you say look, the drop, that moment of connection, and I think the phrase you use is “it determines your whole ride.” And I was curious about that. What do you mean by that?
Srini: Yeah. So, you know, if you watch surfing videos which, you know, you may have to link one up in the show notes just to make this clearer because this is—it’s hard to understand if you’re not seeing it visually, so basically when you’re in the water, you’re looking—you’re kind of—there’s this phrase I always say, “you’re living in the moment but keeping your eyes on the horizon because the waves are coming” and, so when a wave is coming, you start paddling for the shore and the drop basically is the moment that happens between when you paddle and when you push yourself up on the board. And the reason I say that it determines what your entire ride will be like is because the drop is all about one thing. It’s commitment. And if you hesitate when you paddle, because sometimes you’ll look down, you know, when you’re paddling and about to push yourself up and when you’re—what you’re looking down at is, okay this is a suicide mission.
Srini: And in some cases it completely is and you make sense to pull your board back because you’re going to get hurt. But what I found over the last seven, eight years that I’ve surfed was anytime that you hesitate on the drop, it’s worse than if you go for it and you eat shit completely. And so to me that was such a profound metaphor for, you know, what it takes to pull off big ambitious projects, because if you’re not committed to what you want to do from the outset, like, if you don’t have the certain level of commitment that is involved in the kinds of accomplishments that, you know, people like you have had happen in your life, you know, you and I have spoken before on Unmistakable Creative, like, you know, you told me that the idea of being a Rhodes scholar got planted in your head when you were 15 years old.
Michael: That’s right.
Srini: And, of course from that moment on that was something you were committed to, no matter how—what it was going to take to make it happen. And I think that that kind of commitment is what it takes for significant accomplishments in our lives. It doesn’t matter what that accomplishment is. Whether it’s catching a wave—catching a wave just happens to be the perfect metaphor for it—or writing a book or building a company. All of those things require a certain level of commitment and, you know, the more ambitious this thing that you want to do is, the greater the level of commitment. I mean, to be a road scholar, like you said, you know, you figure that out when you’re a young kid and by the time you graduate from high school, that’s four or five years of work on this one idea that got planted …
Michael: And a whole bunch of gridlock as well.
Srini: So, yeah, I mean, yeah, of course. Like, it’d be hard to overstate or understate the role that luck even has played in some of my accomplishments. I mean, I got, you know, really fortunate that an editor found my work on Medium.
Srini: You know, and I’ll never deny that there is an element of luck that is involved in all this but, you know, you also combine the luck with, okay, you put in four years of work once you decided that that was a goal you had.
Michael: It’s true.
Srini: I mean, it’s taken eight years to write this book. Another example that I talked about in the book was Pixar. If you’ve ever read Creativity Inc. by Ed Catmull …
Michael: This is a great book. Really fantastic. A great read for anybody listening in to that, Creativity Inc. by Ed Catmull, one of the founders and, is he the CEO of Pixar?
Srini: He is, I believe, the CEO of Pixar.
Srini: But just an incredible story of somebody who committed to what I call a 20 year drop because, you know, they, they almost went bankrupt multiple times. The reason they became an animation company was because they were trying to sell these hardware computers which apparently were what most of the Pixar movies are made on and they weren’t selling enough of them. They were so deep in the red from trying to sell these things, they said, you know, we should just become an animation studio. But between that decision and Toy Story, which I believe was the first really sort of big hit, was, like, 20 plus years.
Michael: Right. You know, I’ve gotten mixed feelings about this whole full commitment thing. And it’s—because it’s—there’s some sort of tension between, you know, fully committing and the boldness of that and the glory of that but also having just seen some people fully commit to things that were really bad ideas to fully commit to, and how that has, you know, cost them a lot, not just money but time, relationships …
Michael: … reputation. Do you think there’s a way of—do you have to risk it all or …
Michael: …do you have to—or are there ways of somehow playing it safe while still being courageous and bold?
Srini: Yeah. Great question, and a very sort of fitting one. And I amazingly have a very practical answer for this. So, you know, one of the things I said in the book is that you have to eat shit on a lot of waves to figure out which ones are worth going for.
Srini: Because there are waves that it makes complete sense to let them pass by because you’re not going to make them no matter what.
Michael: Which is to say, eating shit sounds like it’s a technical surfing term for not catching a wave, failing a wave.
Srini: Or falling.
Michael: Right. Yeah.
Srini: Yeah. Technical surfing term. Or wiping out. But yeah, that’s basically the way I would describe it. So, one of the other ideas that I mentioned in the book was this concept that, you know, came from a guy named Peter Sims who wrote a book called Little Bets.
Srini: And I love that book because it makes so much sense in the creative process because what the whole point of, of making little bets is, is that you do small things that give you enough feedback to determine whether you should keep going or whether you should level-up and do this next bigger thing. So every small wave really prepares you for a bigger one. So, you know, the example that Peter used, probably that’s my favourite, was Chris Rock. You know, if you ever listen to Chris Rock or watched him on a national comedy tour, Chris Rock is hilarious.
Srini: Every joke he tells gets people really laughing. And …
Michael: And it’s the work of a year’s preparation and trialing and testing in small comedy clubs to get to that point.
Srini: Exactly. Exactly.
Michael: Yeah, I remember that story.
Srini: Every piece of material has been tested. You know, if you look at it from sort of our own example at Unmistakable Creative, when we did our event, every speaker had been tested and vetted because they’d all been guests on the show and we chose them based on who really struck a chord with our listeners. Like, okay, if we put all these people in a room together, this might be a really amazing experience, and it was. So in a lot of sense that was little. But the other thing is, you know, even with that, you know, rather than put a deposit down on a venue and try to sell tickets, the first thing I did was put up a landing page. Let’s see if anybody actually wants to come to this thing and if nobody signs up based on the landing page, then no reason to, you know, go all in.
Srini: And we’ve done that for a lot of different things that just—we’re like, okay, “This is not a project worth putting any more time into.”
Michael: So, I like that. I mean, it’s a—in some ways there’s a degree of be fully committed to the process and the outcome whilst mitigating as many risks as possible while still having that full commitment which is “I’m fully committed to this as an idea of, say, like, your conference but I mean, give it the best possible way of showing up but I’m going to test it before I invest my life savings into trying to make this work in an untested way.”
Srini: Mm-hm. Yeah. I think that’s, that’s really a smart way of doing it. I mean, you know, it’s the whole Silicon Valley minimum viable product method.
Srini: And it could be applied to everything in your life.
Michael: Yeah. And in fact, I think you had a phrase, it’s a surfing phrase again about chasing small waves, you know, you start off catching the small waves before you upgrade to get after the bigger waves.
Srini: Absolutely. I mean, yeah. Because the thing is you’re not, you know, ready to surf bigger waves when you first start out and I think that, if I remember correctly, I had said, you know, I didn’t start out looking for six foot days, I started out, you know, opening the surf report everyday thinking please don’t let it be too big and then I ended up basically pushing my limits. But the thing is now I’m at a point where I have a limit still. Like, I think about an eight to ten foot day is my limit because the thing is I think I had said this to somebody else, (indiscernible)said part of the reason for that limit is that I don’t get many opportunities to test that limit.
Srini: We just don’t get a lot of ten foot days in Southern California.
Srini: And thank God. Because I don’t think—and you know, there’s certain things—so this is another thing to consider, you know, when we were talking about, you’ve seen people make really bad decisions that have cost them dearly. So, for example, if I were to paddle out in 25 foot surf, that’s a guaranteed death wish. That’s guaranteed that I will die because …
Srini: … in this lifetime, I’m at an age and at a certain point in my life where I don’t have the time or the ability to develop the kinds of skills that are necessary at my age to be able to do that. You know, and Dan Coyle has talked about stuff like this in The Talent Code where he said, you know, there are certain things where, you know, you could become incredibly proficient at a musical instrument but you’re not probably going to make a career out of it after 30.
Srini: Just because developmentally those things aren’t possible and I think the same goes here when you’re talking about bigger waves. So, you know, it’s not—and the reason I’m talking about this from this perspective is I think it makes sense to consider this no matter what it is you’re trying.
Michael: Srini, we—unbelievably our time is all but up. So, you know, you’ve got this great new book out, Unmistakable: Why Only Is Better Than Best. For people who want to find out more about you, the podcast, any future conferences, the book, where can they find more about you online?
Srini: So, the book you can actually buy on Amazon. You can actually get it in Barnes & Noble. If you’re an audiobook fan, it’s on Audible as well. You can learn more about the book at Unmistakablecreative.com/book. And if you like podcasts, just do a search for Unmistakable Creative on iTunes.
Michael: And I think that is it.
Michael: What do surfers say as they kind of surf off into the distance? We need to kind of finish on some sort of surfery farewell.
Srini: Well so the surfers—here’s—this is what I call the curse of one last one wave. So, you know, I jokingly say that this has been—there’s, you know, probably jobs and marriages, relationships have all ended because of these, you know, these famous last words: just one last wave and I’m done.
Srini: Or I’m going to catch one last wave in and of course, you end up staying there for three hours.
Michael: Perfect. We’ve caught the last wave in. All is good. Srini, it’s been a pleasure talking to you. Thanks for your time.